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百瑞·威爾遜：中國(guó)國(guó)際城市化發(fā)展戰(zhàn)略研究委員會(huì)委員、英國(guó)注冊(cè)景觀建筑師
香港園境師協(xié)會(huì)董事、香港注冊(cè)園境師
英國(guó)景觀建筑師學(xué)會(huì)和香港園境師學(xué)會(huì)成員
百瑞先生是香港城市設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)會(huì)副會(huì)長(zhǎng)，由他創(chuàng)立的百瑞雋思項(xiàng)目咨詢有限公司在解決中國(guó)大陸和香港的城市化問(wèn)題方面已有20余年的實(shí)踐經(jīng)驗(yàn)。www.initiatives.com.hk
Barry Wilson is Vice President of the Hong Kong Institute of Urban Design. His practice, Barry Wilson Project Initiatives, have been tackling urbanisation issues in Hong Kong and China for over 20 years. www.initiatives.com.hk
作者寄語(yǔ)
城市從未像現(xiàn)在這樣復(fù)雜，多方面的問(wèn)題會(huì)影響到城市建設(shè)中的理念、規(guī)劃、開(kāi)發(fā)、管理和老化。在時(shí)間維度下，人口聚集過(guò)程承載著社會(huì)、政治、健康、文化和經(jīng)濟(jì)背景。故此涉及到的社會(huì)領(lǐng)域包羅萬(wàn)象，包括社會(huì)歷史學(xué)、城市社會(huì)學(xué)、建筑史和考古學(xué)，還有醫(yī)療健康與教育、城市地理學(xué)與經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)理論。
在這個(gè)專(zhuān)欄中，我將游走在世界各地，與各領(lǐng)域的專(zhuān)家、遠(yuǎn)見(jiàn)者、變革者一道討論讓城市生活更美好的基本要素。并在不同關(guān)鍵維度上，分享他們對(duì)未來(lái)城市生活的獨(dú)特見(jiàn)解。
（百瑞·威爾遜于2018年8月深圳）
馬韜女士是世界著名建筑設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所MVRDV 的亞洲區(qū)總監(jiān)，自2014年起在上海任職。她同時(shí)是BREEAM國(guó)際注冊(cè)綠色建筑評(píng)估師和LEED協(xié)會(huì)綠色建筑會(huì)員，領(lǐng)導(dǎo)MVRDV的可持續(xù)發(fā)展部門(mén)。
Marta Pozo is Director of renowned Architects MVRDV Asia, and has been located in Shanghai since 2014. A licensed BREEAM assessor and LEED green Associate Marta leads the Sustainability department for MVRDV.
在今年香港城市設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)會(huì)“樂(lè)活頤年-共融城市設(shè)計(jì)”會(huì)議召開(kāi)之前，我打算提前找時(shí)間跟與會(huì)演講嘉賓進(jìn)行交流，了解他們的特別關(guān)注點(diǎn)和專(zhuān)業(yè)領(lǐng)域，并向他們介紹大會(huì)主旨。雖然有幾位演講嘉賓對(duì)香港都較為陌生，但作為亞洲明星級(jí)設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所 MVRDV 亞洲區(qū)（亞洲區(qū)總部設(shè)在上海）總監(jiān)的馬韜女士卻經(jīng)常到訪本港，因此促成了我們的第一次會(huì)面。
馬韜女士給我的第一印象是她很高，很高，并且信心十足。從她那件閃閃發(fā)光的“荷蘭橙色”襯衫中，就能看出她身上散發(fā)著的自信光芒，但自信是荷蘭人的基本特征，超過(guò)10年和 MVRDV 這樣公司的合作經(jīng)驗(yàn)，造就了馬韜女士的自信。另外，有趣的是，馬韜女士實(shí)際上是西班牙人，來(lái)自瓦倫西亞鎮(zhèn)，先在柏林工作，而后到了鹿特丹，再然后變成“中國(guó)人”。因此，我們想談?wù)勛兏铩３鞘械淖兓托膽B(tài)的改變。
人與街道
我們首先討論的是，馬韜女士和我所熟知的歐洲城市設(shè)計(jì)原則，是否能真正成功地應(yīng)用在中國(guó)？畢竟許多城市都是在鮮有科學(xué)數(shù)據(jù)收集或深入分析的概念基礎(chǔ)上進(jìn)行改造和發(fā)展的，而僅僅是基于設(shè)計(jì)師提供的海外參照?qǐng)D例。 “亞洲的社會(huì)元素是不一樣的” 馬韜女士對(duì)此總結(jié)道。在荷蘭，社會(huì)參加與社會(huì)支持很普遍。而中國(guó)則更加依賴家庭關(guān)系來(lái)實(shí)現(xiàn)社會(huì)融合和相互關(guān)照。“譬如，當(dāng)我們?yōu)槔夏耆嗽O(shè)計(jì)時(shí)，重要的是要超越城市標(biāo)準(zhǔn)的設(shè)計(jì)原則（在很多情況下是指技術(shù)解決方案），并且關(guān)注社會(huì)關(guān)系以及如何在更廣闊的空間發(fā)展。”逐漸的，我們——建筑師、城市規(guī)劃師和設(shè)計(jì)師——可以通過(guò)我們的工作改變?nèi)藗兊乃季S方式。從這個(gè)意義上說(shuō)，項(xiàng)目可以成為一個(gè)模范，它能夠塑造用戶的思維方式和行為，甚至有希望重塑社會(huì)。這既有巨大的潛力，也有重大的責(zé)任。”
在世界上荷蘭人一直是道路開(kāi)發(fā)的創(chuàng)新者與改革者。荷蘭的自行車(chē)數(shù)量超過(guò)其居民人數(shù)，在阿姆斯特丹和海牙等城市，由自行車(chē)完成的旅程比例高達(dá) 70％。同今天的中國(guó)一樣，在 20 世紀(jì) 50 年代和 60 年代，隨著荷蘭的汽車(chē)保有量飆升，道路變得越來(lái)越擁擠，騎行者因而無(wú)路可走。同樣汽車(chē)數(shù)量的增加導(dǎo)致了死亡人口的大幅增加。作為回應(yīng)，興起了“Stop de Kindermoord”（阻止兒童謀殺）的社會(huì)運(yùn)動(dòng)，要求為兒童提供更安全的騎行環(huán)境。 1970 年代的石油危機(jī)進(jìn)一步給荷蘭政府造成了壓力，從而限制其城鎮(zhèn)的機(jī)動(dòng)車(chē)輛發(fā)展，并對(duì)騎行基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施的優(yōu)化和其他交通工具進(jìn)行投資，使荷蘭的街道更安全，城鎮(zhèn)更人性化、更宜居。
Rotterdam market hall 鹿特丹繽紛市集
Ossip van Duivenbode／攝
荷蘭的城市規(guī)劃者巧妙地改變了其西部城市化進(jìn)程中以汽車(chē)為中心的道路建設(shè)政策。在許多城市中，自行車(chē)道與機(jī)動(dòng)交通帶是完全隔離的。而有時(shí)，在空間不足且兩者須共享車(chē)道的情況下，通常可以看到一個(gè)標(biāo)志，上面展示著一個(gè)騎自行車(chē)的人，和后面跟著一輛汽車(chē)的形象，旁邊還寫(xiě)著“自行車(chē)道：汽車(chē)為客”。在交叉路口也一樣，騎行者們擁有優(yōu)先權(quán)，汽車(chē)（幾乎總是）耐心地等待你通過(guò)，這背后的觀點(diǎn)是“自行車(chē)是正確的”。
“有綠地的安全道路”（生活院子）的發(fā)展在整個(gè) 70 年代和 80 年代被廣泛應(yīng)用，并且仍然盛行。在法律上和官方上都是優(yōu)先考慮街道的生活功能，如步行、聊天、玩耍等，街道的生活功能遠(yuǎn)比交通功能重要，街道的廣闊空間用于步行及玩耍。車(chē)速在“有綠地的安全道路”上被限制為“步行速度”，15 公里/小時(shí)，停車(chē)也受到限制。
荷蘭道路工程師漢斯•蒙德曼（Hans Monderman）開(kāi)創(chuàng)了“共享空間”（Shared Space）方法，這是一種將道路使用者模式之間的隔離最小化的城市設(shè)計(jì)方法，已廣泛運(yùn)用于荷蘭的街道。這是通過(guò)去除諸如路肩、路面標(biāo)志、交通標(biāo)志和交通燈等特征來(lái)實(shí)現(xiàn)的。在不清楚誰(shuí)具有優(yōu)先權(quán)的情況下，駕駛員會(huì)減速行駛，進(jìn)而降低車(chē)輛的主導(dǎo)地位，減少道路傷亡率，并提升其他道路使用者的安全。
過(guò)程
馬韜解釋說(shuō)，以不同的方式做事意味著更多的努力和額外的研究工作，不僅需要證明創(chuàng)新方案的可行性，更需要說(shuō)服業(yè)主和政府。然而，只有挑戰(zhàn)現(xiàn)狀才能取得進(jìn)展。在中國(guó)，人們非常愿意嘗試新的方法，而不是像典型的西方文化那樣抵制變革。然而，“不同地區(qū)的政策、社會(huì)行為和支持系統(tǒng)是不一樣的，只是簡(jiǎn)單地復(fù)制或嫁接海外解決方案是行不通的”，馬韜女士說(shuō)道。“本地問(wèn)題需要本地解決方案，引進(jìn)不同背景的智庫(kù)專(zhuān)家對(duì)于生成新的視角和從不同的角度看事物至關(guān)重要。只有這樣，改變才能真正的到來(lái)。再次強(qiáng)調(diào)，重要的還有這個(gè)過(guò)程”。
啊，是這個(gè)過(guò)程，但究竟這個(gè)過(guò)程的關(guān)鍵是什么呢？ “所有各方都需要明白，項(xiàng)目無(wú)論如何都會(huì)被本地化調(diào)整。（項(xiàng)目）總是會(huì)有不同的本地特色（生活方式、需求、審美），即使你試圖完全效仿海外的例子，也會(huì)有法規(guī)、法律、體系和指引來(lái)調(diào)整項(xiàng)目，使其本地化。這個(gè)過(guò)程塑造了結(jié)果。
一個(gè)項(xiàng)目必須針對(duì)使用它的人確定的需求來(lái)進(jìn)行。因此，至關(guān)重要的是盡早讓所有利益相關(guān)者參與到項(xiàng)目中來(lái)，包括城市周邊地區(qū)的利益相關(guān)者，而不僅僅停留在物理概念上的利益相關(guān)者。成功不能以其所使用的材料的質(zhì)量、外觀或遵守技術(shù)指導(dǎo)方針或等級(jí)來(lái)判斷。交付的方案必須是“相關(guān)的”，而不僅僅是設(shè)計(jì)者、政府或官員的猜測(cè)或直覺(jué)。項(xiàng)目必須讓終端用戶能夠切實(shí)使用。在荷蘭，是“社團(tuán)”而非“政府”，是社區(qū)的管理者，這從根本上改變了項(xiàng)目的最終用途目標(biāo)。“當(dāng)然，我們也必須以密度為導(dǎo)向。如果有更多的集中，結(jié)果會(huì)產(chǎn)生更多的共鳴。”
變化即將到來(lái)
在我們的討論中，馬韜女士對(duì)很多事情都“著迷”，但最“著迷”的是變化。“看到在同一時(shí)間、同一地點(diǎn)同時(shí)發(fā)生的各種各樣的事情，實(shí)在令人著迷。“科技和能源供應(yīng)將很快改變整個(gè)城市的結(jié)構(gòu)和人們的生活方式。例如，在上個(gè)世紀(jì)，城市都是圍繞汽車(chē)而設(shè)計(jì)的。隨著交通和城市基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施的發(fā)展，我們對(duì)城市的體驗(yàn)將發(fā)生巨大的變化。現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)出現(xiàn)了這樣的情況：大城市的大片區(qū)域被交還給居民，汽車(chē)也被禁止。與此同時(shí)，新的想法正在被測(cè)試：地下超音速運(yùn)輸、城市空中交通和新的拼車(chē)應(yīng)用。我們?cè)诟咚侔l(fā)展，變化就在我們身邊。
馬韜女士表示:“已建成的環(huán)境對(duì)人們的日常生活影響甚大，甚至比其他人的影響都大。”她覺(jué)得大數(shù)據(jù)分析是促進(jìn)和加速城市變革的一項(xiàng)重要技術(shù)。通過(guò)收集、整理和分析大量數(shù)據(jù)，我們將能夠準(zhǔn)確地了解人們?nèi)绾卫贸鞘幸约八麄兿Ｍ绾问褂贸鞘校虼宋覀兛梢詮膫€(gè)人和集體層面為我們的社區(qū)提供更好的解決方案。
然而，為了創(chuàng)造積極的變化，大數(shù)據(jù)帶來(lái)了巨大的挑戰(zhàn)。 “在任何變化中總會(huì)有人抱怨，因?yàn)檫@需要人們停止做熟悉的事情，開(kāi)始做新的事情。人們需要時(shí)間來(lái)適應(yīng)。但是人類(lèi)的適應(yīng)性非常強(qiáng)，很快他們就會(huì)忘記以前的情況。有時(shí)候，非常簡(jiǎn)單的改變就能讓社會(huì)變得更好”
這個(gè)討論促使我們思考到中國(guó)的發(fā)展模式是如何不是像西方那樣線性的，而是更加互動(dòng)式或循環(huán)式的。每一個(gè)項(xiàng)目都是一個(gè)試點(diǎn)項(xiàng)目，在第一階段，通過(guò)在“試驗(yàn)臺(tái)”實(shí)時(shí)學(xué)習(xí)改進(jìn)提升。沒(méi)有時(shí)間去仔細(xì)計(jì)劃太多細(xì)節(jié)，改變的步伐總是太快；花太多時(shí)間思考則原有基線已變，市場(chǎng)機(jī)遇已逝。“速度很好，”馬韜女士認(rèn)為。“它促進(jìn)變革，改變通常是好事。更重要的是，好的變革促進(jìn)了下一步更好的變化。然而，速度確實(shí)會(huì)影響人們，使他們處于壓力之下，使他們緊張和不可靠。速度的壓力會(huì)導(dǎo)致混亂，從而導(dǎo)致溝通不暢。然后，就不能滿足預(yù)期的質(zhì)量要求了。問(wèn)題的出現(xiàn)并非來(lái)自于速度，而是來(lái)自于溝通不暢。”所以高速可以造就突飛猛進(jìn)的學(xué)習(xí)，但也會(huì)造成溝通不暢，這就是我們中國(guó)的現(xiàn)狀。
包容性或邊緣化？
馬韜女士同樣還“致力于”復(fù)雜性。“我們應(yīng)當(dāng)轉(zhuǎn)向更社會(huì)化的生活，我們是社會(huì)化的動(dòng)物，但目前一切都是以利益為導(dǎo)向、以績(jī)效來(lái)衡量。我們必須把社會(huì)問(wèn)題放在首位，并將社會(huì)問(wèn)題與經(jīng)濟(jì)問(wèn)題加以平衡。”她在不久前閱讀了薩斯基婭·薩森教授的《驅(qū)逐：全球經(jīng)濟(jì)中的野蠻性與復(fù)雜性》一書(shū)，作者在該書(shū)中表達(dá)了她的關(guān)切與擔(dān)憂：全球范圍內(nèi)加劇的收入不平等、流離失所的人群、加速的環(huán)境破壞，同時(shí)該書(shū)闡述了這些是如何被解讀為一種驅(qū)逐，讓人們從職業(yè)生涯、生存空間、甚至切實(shí)存在的數(shù)據(jù)中被“驅(qū)逐”的。“對(duì)經(jīng)濟(jì)數(shù)據(jù)做不出貢獻(xiàn)的人似乎不再存在，只是他們被排除在未來(lái)規(guī)劃和社會(huì)進(jìn)步之外了。人們要么生來(lái)幸運(yùn)，要么生來(lái)不幸。”
回看我們大會(huì)的關(guān)注重點(diǎn)，老年人似乎是一個(gè)經(jīng)常被列入非生產(chǎn)性人口的群體，從而導(dǎo)致他們被“驅(qū)逐”。但是，沒(méi)有人能逃脫年齡陷阱。在人口老齡化的情況下，沒(méi)有人會(huì)洪福齊天，即便富人也不例外。我們每個(gè)人都與家中的老人有關(guān)，并且能夠明白我們終有一天也將身處同樣的境遇。我們最終一致同意，建設(shè)不將老年人排除在外的城市空間是至關(guān)重要的，而這亦將常態(tài)化。馬韜女士笑著說(shuō):“我對(duì)此表示樂(lè)觀。”
MINDSET THE KEY TO CHANGING CITIES——BARRY INTERVIEWS MARTA POZO
Before this year's Conference of the Hong Kong Institute of Urban Design - “Actions for Active Ageing–Urban Design for All,” I wanted to take some quality time in advance to personally greet the speakers and understand their particular passions and knowledge areas, as well as to brief them on the objectives of the Conference. Whilst several speakers were relatively new to Hong Kong, Marta Pozo Gil, Asia Director of design superstars MVRDV, was a regular local visitor, being based in Shanghai. We meet for the first time.
The first thing that strikes you about Marta is that she is tall, really tall. And confident; her bright, shining ‘dutch-orange’ shirt exudes confidence. But then confidence is a basic Dutch attribute and Marta has been absorbing that confidence in working with a company like MVRDV for more than 10 years. Funnily however, Marta is in fact Spanish, from the town of Valencia, working first in Berlin and then Rotterdam before now turning ‘Chinese’. We want to talk about change. Change in the cities and change in mindset.
PEOPLE AND STREETS
We first wonder if the European urban design principles that Marta and I are familiar with can actually translate successfully into China? Afterall many cities are being transformed and developed on concepts with little scientific data collection or deep analysis, but rather are based on the look of the designer’s overseas reference photographs. “The social component is different in Asia” suggests Marta. In the Netherlands, participation and social support is the normal, society is primarily 'civic minded', contrastingly, China is more heavily reliant on family networks for social inclusion and care of each other. “For instance, when it comes to design for the elderly, it is important to go beyond the standard urban design principles, which in many cases are technical solutions, and focus on the societal relations and how they can be developed in a wider way. Step by step, Architects, urban planners and designers in general, can together change people’s mindset through our work. In this sense, the whole project can become a model that can shape the mindset and behaviour of the users and hopefully a wider society. This has tremendous potential but also big responsibility.”
The Dutch have been world innovators in street development and a ‘changing mindset’. There are more bicycles than residents in The Netherlands and in cities like Amsterdam and The Hague up to 70% of all journeys are made by bike. In the 1950’s and 1960’s, as car ownership rocketed, and much as in China today roads became increasingly congested, cyclists were squeezed off the road. The jump in car numbers caused a huge rise in the number of deaths. In response a social movement arose ‘Stop de Kindermoord’ (Stop the Child Murder), demanding safer cycling conditions for children. The oil crisis of the 1970’s put further pressure on the Dutch government to restrict motor vehicles in its towns and cities and to invest in improved cycling infrastructure and other forms of transport that would make Dutch streets safer, and towns and cities more people-friendly and liveable.
Dutch urban planners smartly diverged from the car-centric road-building policies being pursued throughout the urbanising West. In many cities, cycle paths are completely segregated from motorised traffic. Sometimes, where space is scant and both must share, there are street signs showing an image of a cyclist with a car behind accompanied by the words 'Bike Street: Cars are guests'. At junctions too, it is those using pedal power who have priority, where cars (almost always) wait patiently for you to pass, the idea being that the bike is right.
The development of ‘Woonerf’ (living yard), abundantly applied throughout the 1970’s and 1980’s and still prevalent, legally and officially prioritises the living functions of the street - walking, talking, playing, over and above the traffic function, using the full width of the street space to walk and play. Traffic in a ‘woonerf’ is restricted to walking pace, at 15 km/h and parking is also restricted.
Streets were adapted further with the work of Dutch traffic engineer Hans Monderman, who pioneered the ‘Shared Space’ method, an urban design approach that minimizes the segregation between modes of road user. This is done by removing features such as kerbs, road surface markings, traffic signs, and traffic lights, making it unclear who has priority, drivers will reduce their speed, in turn reducing the dominance of vehicles, reducing road casualty rates, and improving safety for other road users.
THE PROCESS
Marta explains how doing things differently implies extended effort, research and detailed work to demonstrate to the client and government than an ‘innovative plan’ can work. Nevertheless progress only comes by challenging the status quo. In China there is a strong willingness to try new approaches rather than the resistance to change that is typical of western culture. However, “where policies, social behaviour and support systems are different, just copying or transferring overseas solutions can’t work” says Marta. “There need to be local solutions to local problems, but bringing in thinkers from different backgrounds is crucial to generate new perspectives and to view things through a different lens. Only then, can change truly come. Again, it’s the process that’s important.”
Ah, the process, but what is the key to this process exactly? “There needs to be an understanding from all parties that the project will be adapted regardless. There are always local ingredients of lifestyle, needs, and aesthetics, that are different and even if you try to strictly follow an overseas example there are codes, laws, systems and guidelines that will adjust the project and localise it. The process shapes the outcome.
A project must address the identified needs of the people who will use it. It’s essential therefore to engage all the stakeholders early in a project, including the urban neighbourhood, and not just carry out physical mapping alone. Success can’t be judged on the quality of the materials used, the way it looks or compliance with technical guidelines or ratings. The programs delivered must be ‘relevant’, not just be the guesses or instincts of the designer, government or officials; the project must function primarily for the end users. In The Netherlands it’s the ‘community’ that are primarily the neighbourhood managers and not the ‘government’, which fundamentally alters the end use objectives of a project. “We must also be guided by density however, where there is more concentration, outcomes resonate more.”
CHANGE IS COMING
Marta is ‘fascinated’ by many things during our discussion but ‘change’ is the main one. “It’s fascinating to see the multiplicity of things that are happening all at the same time, together, in the same place.” “Technology and energy supply will soon change the whole fabric of the city and the way people are going to live. For instance, last century, cities have been designed around the car. As mobility and urban infrastructure develops, there will be massive transitions coming in how we experience the city. It is already happening that larger areas of major cities are being given back to the people and cars are banned. At the same time new ideas are under test: underground hypersonic transportation; urban air transportation; and new ridesharing apps. We are moving forward at high speed and change is all around us.”
“The built environment has a huge influence on how people act out their daily lives, more-so even than the influence of other people,” thinks Marta. One important technology that will facilitate and accelerate change in our cities is big data analytics. With the ability to collect, organise and analyse large amounts of data, we will be able to come up with an accurate understanding on how people uses the city and how they would like to use it, and therefore we can think of better solutions for our communities, at individual and collective level. Nevertheless, big data comes with big challenges in order to create positive changes. “In any change there will always be people who complain, because it requires people to stop doing things that are familiar and start doing things that are new. People need time to adjust. But humans are incredibly adaptable and very soon they will have forgotten how things were before; sometimes just very simple changes can make a huge difference for the better.”
The discussion leads us to consider how China’s development mode is not linear, as in the west, but far more “iterative” or circular. Every project is a pilot project, a first phase, to be improved upon by being a test bed for real time learning. There is no time to plan too carefully and in too much detail, the pace of change is too fast; spend a long thinking and the baseline will have changed, the market will have already moved on. “Speed is good,” thinks Marta. “It promotes change, and change is generally a good thing. What’s more, good changes promote further better changes. However, speed definitely affects people, it puts them under pressure, makes them nervous and less reliable. The pressure of speed can lead to chaos and this to a breakdown in communication. Its then that the quality of expectations aren’t delivered. Problems don’t come from speed, problems come from poor communication.” So high speed can lead to fast learning, but also poor communication, and this is what we have in China.
INCLUSIVITY OR MARGINALISATION?
Marta is also ‘devoted’ to complexity. “We need to move to more social living, we are social animals but at the moment everything is about profit and measured by performance. We have to put social issues to the front, and then balance them with those of economics.” She has just read professor Saskia Sassen’s ‘Expulsions: Brutality and Complexity in the Global Economy’ and voices her concerns raised in the book of globally soaring income inequality, displaced populations and accelerating environmental destruction. The book presents how these can be understood as a type of ‘expulsion’ of people from professional livelihood, from living space, even from the very data of existence. “People not contributing to economic data no longer seem to really exist and are excluded from planning and progress. People are either born lucky or not lucky.”
Coming back to the focus of the Conference therefore it seems that the elderly are a group that have all too often been included in the non-productive demographic, leading them to be “expulsed”. However, nobody can escape the age trap; nobody gets lucky in an ageing population, not even the wealthy. Everyone can relate to the elderly in their family, and can understand that they themselves will be in the same position one day. We therefore finish in agreeing that the importance of building inclusive city spaces that don’t marginalize the elderly will be increasingly normalised. “In that sense I’m positive” smiles Pozo.
